The Intelligent Workplace

Education Series

Building a Global Marketing Team during a crisis

Building high performing teams is a difficult task, even more so when you are required to do it when the world is in the grips of a global pandemic that is changing everything we know about the business world.

On this episode, Nick Rameka, Chief Marketing Officer for LiveTiles shares his story of how his newly formed Global Marketing team was flipped on its head due to Covid-19 and how it had to establish a new way of working, find a common purpose, get to work and deliver a mountain of work during one of the most critical time periods in LiveTiles short history.
 

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Chris Lukianenk…:           Good morning everybody, and welcome back to another of our series of corporate communications online events, and thank you very much for joining us all today. Today we’re going to share some of the very recent, real life experiences of someone from within the four walls of [LiveTiles 00:00:22].

Chris Lukianenk…:           Today we’re sharing the insights and the experiences from the past month or so from within the LiveTiles global marketing operation, and in particular, how the team was pretty much flipped on its head in recent times and had to find a new way of working, find a new normal, and I can tell you I think this is going to be a pretty interesting chat.

Chris Lukianenk…:           So before I flick over and I can introduce my guest today. As usual, you have me, Chris Lukianenko, the host of the Intelligent Workplace podcast, and joining me is someone who has been an absolute guiding light for me in this industry with his ability to see the bigger picture. He’s got the courage to explore the path less traveled and the leadership qualities to elevate the team to new heights. And yes, he is my boss, so I need to be very nice to him. This is of course, talking about our Chief Marketing Officer, Nick Rameka. Welcome aboard, Nick.

Nick Rameka:                     Thanks, mate. Thank you very much. Good to be here.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Great to have you here. So as I said-

Nick Rameka:                     I want you to be very careful the questions you ask me.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Oh, I’ll be hard hitting, hard hitting. Look, I do need to be nice, he is my boss, so I have to say that. But I mean absolutely everything I’ve just said, and those recently have seen him literally stare down this coronavirus thing in the face and power the team ahead, which really has provided us with some great content for today’s session.

Chris Lukianenk…:           So, I’ll jump into a little bit about us. So being that we’re building a community of like minded individuals to participate in these sessions, I’m hoping that by some stage I might be able to drop this slide, but for now this is us. We are a global company specializing in employee collaboration and communication software, and as you can see there on the screen, we are in quite a few countries around the world.

Chris Lukianenk…:           The agenda for today, it’s pretty simple. It’s me basically trying to get inside the mind of Nick so that hopefully all of you can benefit from the insights that he has to offer. So we’re going to take a bit of a look at what is the new normal now, how Nick got the team to find a common purpose, some of the changes he had to make to get the team to really work together, the systems that we had to put in place to make sure that we delivered what we said we would deliver, the feedback from internal, which was interesting, what what the company thought of the recent changes and then some of the next steps.

Chris Lukianenk…:           So, just make sure that’s set, that slides change over. So look, Nick, it’s been mentioned by every single outlet in the world and has been included in so many speeches that I think I’ve actually lost count. A cliche I think, yes, but I’m going to use it here. We are in unprecedented times and as a result, the business world is racing to catch up with the new normal. So what’s your opinion on the new normal, mate?

Nick Rameka:                     Oh look, I don’t think we know what that looks like yet. I think what we’re going through right now, obviously everyone knows this, is we’re living day to day at the moment and you have to make some presumptions as to what the world will look like after COVID-19, but we know that there’s no doubt that it may never be the same again. And they are seismic shifts that are happening right before our very eyes. We are watching it in real time.

Nick Rameka:                     It’s not localized, it’s global. For our generation and the next, that’s significant. We had the terrible bush fires in Australia at the start of the year in the whole world had their focal point on that for a period of time, because that did indicate what Greta Thunberg has been prophesying the world is that climate change is something that we are experiencing, and that was definitely a symptom of that.

Nick Rameka:                     But this is different. I mean this is different, again, being in global lockdown is almost surreal. So I don’t think we know what the new normal it looks like just yet, but I think we’d absolutely have to be alert. I don’t think it’s a time to bury yourself in creativity that takes you away from reality. It is a very practical creative that we need to chase after.

Nick Rameka:                     I just put some points here. I think number one, you’ve just got to accept, and it really depends on whether, I think we sit on the scale of the locus of control. Do you have a stronger internal locus of control or a strong external? Meaning, can you get organized quickly or do you fall victim and you just allow the circumstances to take over? I reckon it’s a balance between the two. Now typically those with a really strong internal locus of control think they control the universe and those with an external locus of control, a really strong one, almost resign to the universe.

Nick Rameka:                     Aim somewhere in between. I think if you are too far to either extreme, you would miss some really critical cues that are coming our way. I would think as a marketer, and I think you’ve got to accept the marketing plan you had, that’s canceled. I think it’s a return back… With all the marketing trends and you’ve got all the marketing gurus that’s coming out of the woodwork, they’re always telling you this or that, and a lot of them don’t stand on the good old marketing principles, which aren’t…

Nick Rameka:                     They’re kind of like the vegetables of marketing. They’re boring, they don’t have a great taste. They don’t necessarily get you out of bed each morning, but they’re the firm foundations that you can return to. And for some marketers though, they’ll be very, very familiar with the PESTLE analysis as a marketing principle. And the PESTLE analysis, without getting too wanky with the term, is really the way you should be consuming information.

Nick Rameka:                     So you should be a worldly consumer of the information we get, so that you can determine politically, economically, socially, technologically and environmentally what’s going on in the world. Even before COVID came along, that should be the case. I’ll give you an example of that. That’s been a principal I’ve always tried to adhere to. I’ve always tried to understand what’s going on across that landscape, because I think it’s essential.

Nick Rameka:                     If you’re only consuming the latest marketing trends, sometimes that stuff can be incredibly fluffy. And then you get something like a pandemic like this, which happens once in 100 years. And a lot of those things, you just see them, they’re gone, they’ve been canceled a lot of those things. And what remains is what you [inaudible 00:07:23]. So I think a lot of marketers are now returning back to those principles. And if you’re a self-made marketer and you haven’t been familiar with those things, you probably do it by instinct anyway.

Nick Rameka:                     And I think if you can get a hold of those things and you consume that kind of content as a marketer, you return back to first principles, you get the ability to make informed decisions rapidly, you organize rapidly and you adapt rapidly. And all of that comes together so that you can innovate rapidly. And there is no doubt in my mind that anyone and everyone has to have their innovation hat on. In fact, that term, terms like disruption, innovation, they’re buzzwords in a lot of conversations.

Nick Rameka:                     Then you have something like what we’re in now. We’re in forced lockdown where we are now in extreme compression and limitation, and we all know, we know this, that the best innovations, the best inventions come out of a landscape like that. When we’re in an environment that limits us, it actually pushes our creativity, pushes us into far more lateral thinking. The autopilot button is turned back off and we are thinking at the height of our intelligence, or we should be. [crosstalk 00:08:50].

Chris Lukianenk…:           Sorry mate. How big of a change has this new normal made to LiveTiles specifically?

Nick Rameka:                     Last year, I was doing a lot of research on the remote workforce because I was getting some… So we’re a tech company and so we use an analyst company called Gartner. And I was pulling a lot of their research and others like Forester and commentators, journalists from Forbes and Harvard Business Review and things like that.

Nick Rameka:                     You notice that the remote workforce was already gaining ground. Now maybe not a full time remote workforce, but there was definitely, particularly in the millennial generation, something like 51% of the workforce had some kind of experience with working remotely. And we work in that space. So we work in collaborative and communications software and services. So that’s my interest and the company’s interest.

Nick Rameka:                     So we started to put together a paper on that. It almost seems naive now, because we obviously didn’t know what was coming, that we would all become a global pretty much… I saw a stat recently, over one billion people are now working remotely. It’s one in seven people. So we were starting to gear that way and so that was starting to…

Nick Rameka:                     We’re a B2B company. So as a B2B marketer, traditionally you go to the trade shows, the conferences, so it’s very event-based. But I started to see that if people are working more remotely that the digital space, as you see with B2C marketers, they’re all over that and have been for a long time. B2B marketers are a little bit behind the eight ball on that one, I feel at times.

Nick Rameka:                     So we were already planning for very much a transition to a much more dominant digital strategy, which unbeknownst to us, that was a good thing. It was setting us up a little bit more in advance than maybe would have been for what was to come.

Chris Lukianenk…:           And so what has actually happened has just meant that your timeline to fulfill that vision has just been compressed and brought forward a long way. And at what point did you think, “I know I want to head this direction, but I know my team’s not quite set up to deliver what I need to deliver for the business.”?

Nick Rameka:                     Sorry, could you just phrase that question again?

Chris Lukianenk…:           So at what time did you realize during this process of you thought you had to make some changes then COVID happened and the business and the team had to change, at what stage during that process did you think, “I need to make this happen now because my team is not set up to deliver what the business needs right now.”?

Nick Rameka:                     Oh, well again, I think it came back to PESTLE that always sits in the back of your mind is that everything’s going to change. So straight away you start to look at the plans you had and you start to throw out all the redundancies. In terms of having the team that we needed to go through this process, I think we were already in the throws of putting together a much more multi disciplined team, particularly for the digital strategy we had. That only emphasized that and probably brought that to the fore much quicker in terms of what we needed to get achieved very, very quickly on a day to day basis.

Nick Rameka:                     And so the things that were more theoretical based, like working as a scrum, meeting daily. We were coming to that. And I think you see that across all industries, across all professions. People were moving towards something and then COVID happens and then you’re suddenly accelerated. An example is the digital transformation, that’s something, CIOs, it was their bugbear. They were trying to drag organizations the world over on this slow and steady journey to the cloud.

Nick Rameka:                     And we know today, you either digitize or you may die, and cloud technologies is the way you’re going to survive. So COVID-19, it’s not so much it’s dragged the late majority into the cloud, it’s just simply shut the doors on all the other options.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Rameka:                     So everything’s accelerated.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Look, in doing a bit of research around having a chat with you all, I went to the Harvard Business Review to find out some information around high performing teams. I found this definition that I really liked. I’ll read it to you now. A team is a small number of people with complimentary skills who are committed to a common purpose, a set of performance goals and approach for which they hold themselves mutually accountable. How important was it for you to find that common purpose with your team and what was it?

Nick Rameka:                     What I did, which usually I would go to market for new team members, but what I was starting to see is where the gaps were for us… this is going back six, eight months… is that what I wanted to build was a multidisciplined team. We’re a product company and a services company, but the products can be quite complex.

Nick Rameka:                     And rather than just have a bunch of marketers who are chasing product engineers around and trying to get a little bit of their time to get more insight into the value prop and also the development of content for our audience, I thought, well, why don’t we just hire one of them? Why don’t we just move one of them into marketing?

Nick Rameka:                     And also, I moved two of them into marketing. So I grabbed one of the UX designers for the product, and I also grabbed one of our pre-sales product specialists. And the reason for that was to really drive substantive content. So it goes beyond just that slick shopfront window into deep and meaningful second tier content, the type of stuff that the new buying process or the buying process I think has been around for a lot longer than we think, is that our buyers will pull all that information anyway.

Nick Rameka:                     So anyway, that was the backdrop to how we got the team we have now. And that has really future-proofed I think our marketing program in having those people come together. It’s not a huge team, it’s quite lean. But what’s really good about it, I compare it to a really good three piece band. Now we’ve got more than three people in the team, but you bring it back to the basics and basic dynamics and you can pivot really quickly. You lose the red tape, you organize a scrum, and that’s never more pronounced than when we’re in a pandemic, and a global one at that, and we’re all locked in our homes for a while.

Nick Rameka:                     So that’s how we were able to pivot really, really quickly. So there was some work that went on beforehand that got us to here. So we may not have been able to turn it around as quickly if we hadn’t had done that preparation work. So yeah, it did position us advantageously.

Chris Lukianenk…:           I love it how you bring things back to music. For people that don’t know Nick, Nick’s a big music fan, huge fan of Bowie and Prince and that sort of thing. I love it, that simplicity of a three piece band. Drums, bass guitar, singer, that sort of thing. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Why don’t you talk us through… I love this saying you’ve got here on the screen, nothing accelerates a common goal like a common enemy. Sounds like something from a superhero movie or something. The Avengers.

Nick Rameka:                     Yeah. Look, I don’t want to downplay the scariness of the times, there’s no doubt. I think all of us have come through a period being shell-shocked and we’re learning things each day that can bring renewed concerns. I think that you’ve got to have this almost binary approach to it where yes, you need to be very, very mindful of what’s going on around you and not stick your head in the sand about it, but you also have to be active.

Nick Rameka:                     Pre-COVID, we were able to forecast months and months in advance. We were able to make some assumptions that most likely would have fallen into place 80% of the time. We don’t have that luxury anymore. So we have to find the clarity in the catastrophe. Because with a big catastrophe like this, there is a clarity that it brings. It tightens the agenda globally, it pairs it right back to first principles.

Nick Rameka:                     You can either ride that wave because things will be accelerated whether you like it or not. I think this is why it’s so important, whether you’re a marketer or any other professional, you have to let go of that control of things that you were planning to do. Whatever you were planning to build in January, most likely, that’s been canceled. 99% of it has, if not all of it. And so now it is a world for the resilient.

Nick Rameka:                     I think as marketers, I think the marketer, the communications professional comes to the fore at a time like this. I’ve always believed those two disciplines are incredibly important for business anyway. And often they take a back seat, but really you think about marketers, they have these amazing levers at their fingertips, incredible levers to amplify the scale, to get into the nooks and crannies. It’s an incredible machine if you get it running right.

Nick Rameka:                     And communications people, to me, if they’ve taken a back seat, and it might not be through any control that they had over that situation, but now communication is everything. Over communication is the buzzword right now. People are now hanging off the words of our political leaders. What’s the next step? The government is coming to play on a new level. So all these players that may have been invisible, may have been sounded out by a lot of other loud voices, I think you’re seeing a lot of those loud voices from pre-COVID starting to go into the irrelevance bucket, that sort of shift from the cult of celebrity to the office of the expert.

Nick Rameka:                     I think if communications professionals, they are the people, they are the person in the gap that can ease the tensions within your organization, across your customer base, across your partner base. It’s an incredibly important role to play in the current times.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned before about 99% of your plans pretty much being thrown out the window. I guess for us at LiveTiles, we relied quite heavily on trade shows and events and that sort of thing and every single one of those have been completely canceled. So there’s a full year’s marketing plan just thrown in the bin, wasn’t it?

Nick Rameka:                     Yeah. Well I think on the human side of it, it’s sad because it’s knocked out a whole industry of livelihood for so many different services that surround that. So I’m really sorry to see that happen so quickly to that industry who you and I have a lot of friends in.

Nick Rameka:                     On the business front, yeah, absolutely. Particularly for B2B and also B2C, the in-person experiences, for us, the events were absolutely a critical go-to-market channel for us. We were starting to look at a more digital focus and peering back at our events calendar anyway. But even so, there were some big events that were happening this year that we invest quite heavily in and see some great returns on. So yeah, absolutely, those things have been canceled. We have to absolutely think of other ways to do those things.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, absolutely. So back on this whole common goal, common enemy, how’s the buy in from the team been with this?

Nick Rameka:                     Well, this is what I think I was saying before, there’s so much opportunity right now, and even though the days are quite dark, there’s incredible opportunity to unite. And it does feel like war, and it is war with a common enemy. Thankfully it’s not people on the other side of that battle, it’s a disease, and our war heroes are our experts in the healthcare industry. It’s so good to see doctors being applauded as they walk down the street as opposed to reality TV and movie stars. [crosstalk 00:22:12]. that’s my personal thing.

Nick Rameka:                     But anyway, it’s just good to see, like I said, the cult of celebrity quietened down and give way to the offices of the experts. And that’s one of the things I think is going to change is we’re actually going to see a significant social shift. So we’ll favor well-researched commentary over subjectivism. I think we’ll also be very compelled to get out of our own heads. Think more communally for the greater good rather than the personal dream. I think all these things, if you go right across that PESTLE analysis, as a marketer, you’ve got to start preparing for that.

Nick Rameka:                     We know that life is not going to be the same. The markets are not going to be the same. Social habits, consumer habits, all that kind of thing. So finding that common purpose is pretty easy in a time like this and you’ve got to take advantage of that. And I’ve seen that across all our team members. I’ve always said marketing is too big a concept to be relegated to a department. So I’m seeing it across all our departments, marketing come out of… marketing ideas and innovations around pricing, innovations around how we may repurpose our products to meet the need state, the sudden and immediate need states of so many of our customers and people in the business community.

Nick Rameka:                     So if you don’t take advantage right now to get rid of all the BS that may have been within your teams, you’re missing a huge opportunity.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yep. You got that last point there, executing a scrum. How important has that been to just keeping the vibe of the team going and just keeping the eye on the prize of that common enemy? I’ve actually quite enjoyed our daily scrum meetings. I think they’ve been a great thing. But for you, have you seen them as being effective?

Nick Rameka:                     Yes, I have. And what’s even better is that it wasn’t me who initiated that, it was our brand and creative director who just jumped into that position and ran these daily meetings. And so I haven’t put my big head in there. I’ve rather just subjected myself to that meeting. It’s amazing, that more social democracy in the team where it’s less about, “Oh well that’s my role and I do that.” Everyone in the team thankfully is multidisciplined, so they can cover other people but they also have a specialization. So we lean on each other even more.

Nick Rameka:                     So meeting together is like exercising in the morning. It’s getting all your body parts moving and feeling good, and heading in the same direction. So again, I think it’s great to see our team and people in general step up to the occasion.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I asked you for a bit of a checklist about what you’ve been through in the last couple of months and that sort of thing, and finding a common purpose for a developing team is really important, but you need to do a little bit more. What I put on the screen here is what you came up with and I just was hoping that maybe you could talk us through these different points here around what you did in recent times.

Nick Rameka:                     Well yeah, identifying talent was thinking of it more broadly than your traditional marketing roles. We absolutely have a core group of people who have that traditional marketing background. But as I said before, I think marketing is just too big a thing to relegate to a department. And what I wanted to design the team, and this is before COVID, was to bring in a product expert, a UX expert.

Nick Rameka:                     Now they typically don’t always have those in the marketing team. They’ll sit in the product team. And we’re not a huge company, but we’re globally distributed. So we have more than 200 employees across quite a few locations, in US, Europe and Australia. So we have a global marketing team. So what we really needed to do was identify, okay, what’s the go-to-market plan here? What do our buyers need to hear from us? They don’t always just want to hear marketing salesy pitches, they want information.

Nick Rameka:                     I think the marketing pitch and the sales pitch has died a death that sometimes we don’t acknowledge. Buyers of things have so much research at their fingertips, they are so much more educated, and so it’s less about just doing the big glossy pitch and then rolling in the sales team to fill everyone in on what we do. I mean, that actual sales motion window is actually quite a bit smaller. It’s extremely small compared to what it used to be. And the buyer research [inaudible] is like that.

Nick Rameka:                     And so the expectation is they can pull content, they can pull information. They can build their business cases, particularly in the B2B space without needing to talk to a sales person. And so when they walk in the door, they know way more about you than possibly we think.

Nick Rameka:                     So we wanted to develop a team that could create that information and send that out into the digital landscape. And so that means going beyond just that first tier of information, that pitchy type stuff, into valuable information, things that people can actually use, people can actually use to build a business case, challenge their thinking, all that kind of stuff. So I wanted a team like that.

Nick Rameka:                     Then once we got the team, we created this production line. [inaudible] traditional stream. So they go to market office, the product marketing function if you want you call it that, creative stream, content stream, communications stream, digital stream and demand gen stream. And so everyone owns those streams, but there is a clear architect and owner over each of them. And so yes, we jump into each of those as we do form a scrum, and we help each other out, but at the end of the day, over the top of each of those streams, there’s one person accountable and it’s amazing how quickly you can get things out the door. And as a scrum, you come together and you agree on a goal, you commit time to it, you check in daily and you ship it.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the expanding of the team and refining of the roles, that is probably a little bit further down the track, but that’s certainly part of this plan here, isn’t it?

Nick Rameka:                     Yeah, sure. I think it’ll be constantly evolving. And we’ve already seen it, we’ve repurposed even people’s roles already. [crosstalk 00:29:31].

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, absolutely. And the beauty is that the team is at such a point where they are on such the same page, everybody is accepting of those changes and just doing whatever it takes to, as you say, ship that widget out the door.

Nick Rameka:                     Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Look, of course, all of this stuff about building a team is great, but you need systems to be able to make things work and communicate with the outside world and all that sort of thing. How have you found your way in trying to find, not one system, but many systems to make this team operate in the way you needed it to?

Nick Rameka:                     So in what ways, the tech platforms we sit on, or the-

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, I mean we’ve got so many different pieces of tech at our fingers. And even within the marketing team, I think there’s three different project management type solutions that we’re using. So trying to bring people together and systemize operations so that that production line can work as efficiently as possible. What’s been the key?

Nick Rameka:                     Well, we’ve always used Microsoft Teams as a platform, but I have to admit, not as much as we have in the last four weeks. And setting ourselves up there, I think as long as you’ve got a common platform to collaborate, I think it’s okay for people in the team to use their various platforms they might dive into to do the detail of the work, whatever is comfortable for their work style.

Nick Rameka:                     But I think it all has to stream up into a essential platform where we’re agreeing on common goals and workloads, and then people can go off to their separate systems. So I think as long as you’re meeting, as long as there is a village square, then you can go off into your little corners. So that’s worked really effectively for us, particularly recent times.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Yeah, I love that village square thing.

Nick Rameka:                     I’m just mindful of the time. We have gone a bit over so I’ll speed up my responses.

Chris Lukianenk…:           That’s all right. No worries. We’ll move onto the next one, which was company feedback. So as they say in the classics, feedback is a gift, and I’m sure that you’ve received your fair share of it during this process. So how has it been?

Nick Rameka:                     I think very positive. I think with the new team we put together, we were able to move things a lot quicker and get things out the door, so that it’s always what receives welcome feedback. The other thing is I think people in other teams are much more conscious of marketing as their own responsibility also.

Nick Rameka:                     I’ll just give you a quick story. Talking about returning to first principles, I think things like the four PS, the five PS, the seven PS, nine Ps, whatever system you’re subscribed to, those concepts are so healthy to revisit, and those models because it really expand… A guy that I listen to a lot, and I think he’s one of the voices, the marketing experts that really cut through a lot of the BS you sometimes see on various platforms.

Nick Rameka:                     But he wrote an article recently that I read where he says that a lot of us marketers have forgotten the four Ps or the five Ps, seven Ps. And we’ve just become communicators and promoters. And yet, the other levers like pricing strategy, placement, how you distribute and all those kinds of things, they’re such big parts of the marketing strategy. And yet often they go left unnoticed and it’s someone else’s job to do.

Nick Rameka:                     So we do all the big creative and we do all that kind of stuff and we communicate, which is incredibly important to amplify the message. But I think the marketing minds should get back into pricing, because the marketing mind brings something different to it than a sales mind, than a product mind. Usually, like I was talking about the PESTLE, they bring a very broad understanding of markets and insights and research. And when those things collide and inform those Ps…

Nick Rameka:                     So from product development to pricing to placement, how you distribute those, to understanding big metrics like CAC, I think the marketer is shifted from the fluff department or I’ve heard-

Chris Lukianenk…:           The crayons.

Nick Rameka:                     … people call it crayon department, to a much more serious place in the business. And why wouldn’t you? You’ve got these amazing leaders at your fingertips. Why wouldn’t you want to be in that position to help a business move forward? You can only be sales led or sales driven for a certain amount of time and then something bigger has to take over, and sales is a fulfillment motion. But marketing, if it’s good, will capture your audience in big sweeps. I think I’m [inaudible] little bit too much because we are way over time.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Nick is being very modesty. I want to draw out from him that one of his colleagues who sometimes takes a bit of fun out of a Nick in terms of marketing the crayon department actually said to other colleagues within the company that if you want to see a team that is really doing some great stuff right now, go and check out what Nick’s done with the marketing team. So it’s certainly been getting some great feedback.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Very quickly, Nick, I know you’re a fan of all the models and theories that you’ve spoken about, but one last one was the Tuckman stage of team development, the forming, storming, norming, performing. So right now your team has compressed that into literally a three or four week period, I suppose. Very quickly, expecting that they could potentially burn out, how do you keep them focused on the light at the end of the tunnel, and is this just the new normal for them?

Nick Rameka:                     No, I don’t think it’s the new normal. I don’t think we know what that is yet, as I said at the start. I think we’re trying to find that, and it’s very difficult to predict accurately or with any great confidence just yet. No, I think what we’re going through now, I sometimes find Tuckman’s forming, storming, norming, performing a little bit reductionist. And so I’m always a bit careful with those kinds of models, but you can identify where you might be at in that stage.

Nick Rameka:                     I mean, I think we are performing, but I don’t think we’ve gone through all those stages. It’s a fairly new team. So we’re a little bit of everything. But as I said before, the COVID-19 has caused all these accelerators to go into place. So yes, as we might be in the forming stage, we are in the performing stage too by necessity and by default. And you’ve just got to ride the wave. And when there is a bit of normalcy-

Chris Lukianenk…:           Ride the wave.

Nick Rameka:                     … it comes back to, then I think all these other steps will fall into place too. We will go through the storming stage and the norming stage, and all those kinds of things.

Chris Lukianenk…:           It’s just the environment we operate in right now is different. So potentially some of these models that have existed for years and years and years are also changing with the times as well. So it’s great stuff.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Mate, thanks for joining me today and sharing your insights on this. I’ve had a few comments here saying that was very insightful and people have been taking lots of notes, so there you go. That’s great feedback for you and thank you very much.

Chris Lukianenk…:           For those of you that are enjoying this series of events, you may have realized that last week we said that we’d be doing the education piece on this session, but being our expert Tim Rose from Oxford resides in another part of the world, it’s been a bit difficult to get him and I together to better plan out the session. So we’ve shifted that to next week where we talk about education space right now and what’s going on with that. So hopefully you can join us again for that session.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Don’t forget, you’ll get an email with any of the stuff that we’ve talked about here and links. If you want to ask further questions, because we have run out of time today and I assume everybody’s got to get back to their important job. So Nick, thank you once again for joining us. That was really insightful, mate. Thanks a lot.

Nick Rameka:                     Thanks, mate, thanks everyone. Great to be here.

Chris Lukianenk…:           Great stuff. All right. Have a great day everybody. Thanks a lot. Bye.

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